The Quest with Justin Kan

The Quest with Justin Kan

Jul 20, 202138m
Conor White-Sullivan: Networked Thought (Part 2) | Roam Research, Climate Change, Community, Empowerment
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Missed Part 1 of this conversation? Check out last week’s episode, or head over to The Quest YouTube channel for the full episode.

Last week, Conor and I discussed augmenting collective and individual intelligence, evangelical churches, anthropology, and truth-seeking. 

Continuing from where we left off, we dive further into the philosophy behind Roam Research, the concept of networked thought, climate change, empowerment, and self-love. This was a powerful conversation about how communities allow all of us to hold each other accountable, and develop a deeply connected sense of trust.

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Transcript
Speaker 1 (2)
What's up guys? You listening to the quest. A podcast that inspires Founders and creators to seek Eternal growth. I'm Justin Khan co-founder twitch and partner at code Capital off every week. I sit down with icons and Trailblazers from Tech Hollywood sports music and more to uncover their human stories and bring you lessons in finding meaning and happiness Beyond success. It's awful to talk about winning but I'm here to share the difficult stories that are often left out of the spotlight. I ask the questions. Nobody else asks and you'll get the answers, you won't hear anywhere else. I get a ton of Twitter DMS every day asking me something along the lines of hey Justin I want to be a great founder and I have this amazing idea in my head but I don't really know how to start building it. What do I always tell young Founders to just get started and shipped something? Luckily the days of needing to hire designer or relying on VC funding just to get started are over with apps like universe. Universe is not just any website builder. It's literally one of the easiest tools out there to customize your unique site that fits your personality with this app. You don't need to spend hours sitting at a desk building your site Off the Grid editor, that easily lets you snap blocks into place. You can design a customize, your site, wherever you are. And however you want all from the palm of your hand if you're feeling overwhelmed and don't know how to get started on your company, check out your office and get started building today, will drop the link in the show notes. All right guys, I hope you all had an amazing week. Welcome back to you, part two of my conversation with Connor, White solvent. If you haven't already, go back and check out part one right now. So off last week, Hunter and I talked about augmenting Collective and individual intelligence as well as Evangelical churches in this part, you're going to hear us talk about everything from climate change to building a community that holds each other accountable. As always. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to drop us a rating. Subscribe to our YouTube channel and check out all the quests related content and listened. Justin Quest. All right, let's just get back into town. Here is Connor. I want to talk about climate change actually. Like, I know you have an interest in climate change that I was how you think about how we might solve the problem, or attack the problem in the, you know, in the world that's one of the interests of our fund is, like, investing in climate change startups.


Speaker 2 (4:28)
Sure. Yeah, I mean, so the the post that I shared was from Victor who I think if there's still humans like 6,000 years from now, more people will talk about bright Victor than about Donald Trump. I put some some Credence on that. Like I do feel like he's one of the like real like active philosophers right now. So anyways, of course I shared was from him. And you know, I originally started thinking about Lacroix Christian about Rome and about the broader problem with like, Collective action collective intelligence, you know, when I was in college and I was starting to get concerned about climate change as a dramatic license, but like an instance, in a more General problem, set of something, we're just incompetency, seems to be totally the State of Affairs. Like, our system is set up where there's like dead Is greater than human incentive structures, where it's like, okay. Well, if you're not the one who pollute someone else, who pollutes will take that place, right? Like if you're not going to be the Cut Pro, see someone else will be a Cutthroat to you for you, right? Like I'm like there's there is some struck pattern, right? And we have names for some of them, you know, people talk about like, you know, like structural question, right? But they're like Game Theory shapes that are running the world. They like Twitter, like straight, you know, democracy is in many ways. One of these like the facts that, you know, Senators spend more time Dialing for Dollars. And there's actually no correlation between popular opinion on a bill and whether people support the Bill in Congress, it's like like these incentive structures are more powerful than any one person who's participating in them. But like we, so we're already sort of run by our friendly AGI, right? Like when people talk about, you know, artificial general intelligence, and how it might take over the world. Like a g, I already runs the world and it's totally not human aligned, right? That's why climate change. That's why covid-19 Like all these things are fucked, and it's not one person's fault and it's not one group of people's fault. It's like there's just a lot of these setups that it is really hard for any individual to fight against wage. And so, and it's really hard for people to coordinate to change. So, climate change seems like a, it was the first Extinction event. Like, if we don't figure this out, maybe we're going to get screwed off. It's interesting cuz I thought, you know, it's not the one I point to as much now because partially I've seen the way in which, like it's been co-opted by one of these non-friend like a g ice, which is that there does seem to be consensus with our scientific institutions, which are funded by you know the government that like there's a tendency towards the things which encourage more power off, right? Like they like anytime 99.9% of scientists tell you something that's not how science works. Like that's just you know, there's some sort of art that that's like someone winning an election with ninety nine. Percent of like climate change is obviously real. Obviously we should do something about it, right? But like that's not over what consensus is not science. Science is driven by each powerful explanations. At any individual can check if you have to shout down people for being sceptics, sceptics or what science is built on all progress, depends on these like you know people who are like seeing things that others aren't and able to find powerful explanations for these things. So, I'm currently extremely concerned about our ability to make sense of new information. Particularly situations where we need to act quickly and convince and bring a bunch of other people along with us. Like people are more interested in, like, what does it make me like? Who am I, if I believe this thing like, is is the right team supporting this idea, or is the wrong team supporting this idea in. Like, if somebody who I don't like, says this is true. It's definitely false, right? Like yeah. That's, you know, so so my, my


Speaker 1 (12:12)
entails wage


Speaker 2 (12:13)
Dog on our phone one. Yeah. Right. Like it's it's all socially coordinated and it's all social media and because we don't have good ways of actually like checking each other's work and having being like, okay, like do we have a way of both like yeah, building up from first principles and figuring out non-ideological Enon, like status status. See like, what's, what is the full range of good ideas off? Like why would the the even the collections of the lease between the two parties, right in Thailand, you know, the people who are pro-life were all vegan, right? But we, we somehow sort of think that like, politics seemed like, the natural collection of how these beliefs should be sorted. It's like it's totally arbitrary. So my, my rants is like, I'm particular interested in figuring out, how you could figure out what's true, how to replace the media? That's my, my, I think. And I think that problem is up screen of is probably Upstream of climate change. Because even if we have really great plans, like if you look at how successful you age, Covet my and you look at how dramatic the change in our ecosystem, don't forget even like the temperature like just, you know, Rivers like having no fish any more than like these disappearing. Like, there's just like it's all around us that there's just just gradual, slope decline of everything. And we're not able to take any sort of dramatic, like changing leaves. It's all updating in like, either too fast or too slow, but it's like not. So it doesn't make any sense. So the challenge is like, can we figure out a way to make sense juice world together and then be able to act based on that and, you know? Yeah, but but that's the way I think you. You work on that. And, and all these other problems is like, figure out in it, kind of goes back to the Christianity thing. I'm really glad my first company failed before I had any kind of power, right? Because I had been approached an idea for how things should be. And thank God. Have the political power to force, anybody to do anything because I just had no idea actually, as a nineteen-year-old relative to what I thought. I I knew but the the thing that I liked about the the whole church kind of movement that I saw was like, they were like books aren't your relationship to yourself and then the people immediately around you and then like each concentric circle out and if you're going to change things, you you age, you start, you know, looking at yourself and you seem like, how can I how can I make myself better and how can I improve my relationship with people immediately around me and I feel like that act like wage. You know? That doesn't need to be a like It's not the same as like, oh, let me recycle or like, do like some fucking, you know, put all my attention into like blaming myself for these larger, structural issues than the structural issues are still there, like their life to be the thing. Yeah, like the recycling isn't going to solve climate change when all the jobs are moved over to China and then all the pollution is happening there, right? Like there's, you know, your recycling is can be a distraction but like so you do want to figure out how to pay attention to things. But only if you're like focused on like getting your mind right, getting your relationship, like getting your trust, right? Like being able to change your mind when the facts change, when you see new things, being able to be resilient that kind of stuff. So that's kind of my life, like,


Speaker 1 (18:42)
you gotta, we gotta start somewhere, I love it. So it's like, starting at this, is the the root cause and we can figure out how to communicate with each other and coughing. Around Collective action around this your truth instead of fat, you know, truth and like it can be learning together. It's Upstream, of course, they're models


Speaker 2 (18:59)
beautiful. I mean particularly because, like, particularly, because in my model, it's like, the people who are already doing this, right? Like it's, it's pretty hard to force. People who don't want to like a form, an accurate model of the world to do so, right. But the people that I've met who are having by far the same impact on the world are the ones who change their mind, the fastest. Right? You know? And so there is a sense in which like, you know, like Patrick Austin's, one of our users, right? You know, like that and he was he was found one of the few people that I was like, really, you know, he was thinking about like problems in the institutions of Science and like how to make things, you know, how to build, big institutions, that kind of thing. I was off. This is someone who is really interested in the truth and, you know, if I can help them achieve their goals, I actually do think there's a good chance that, you know, that will bring about a more like truth oriented Society log. Is one of the people who I have extreme conviction that she's, you know, if we're going to live healthily for an extra twenty years or thirty years or a hundred years like lawyers going to have a part to play in it and off. So when I think about my director of impact on human longevity and the disease that is aging my best Hope was like if I can help Laura be five percent more effective wage rate, that's my, my Vector for trying to improve those things. And but then there's also, you know, the story of ramayana Jean, right? Yeah. Yeah, right. Like like you just there's so many young kids and really know where Nigeria or, you know, Somaliland or like, you know, Nepal, right and giving them leverage giving them leverage to learn faster from other place to meet other people without having to go to an, you know, a university or, or some, you know, or school. But like being able to find other like folks that they can share their map of the territory off. And figure out how to make sense of things together. And I think you can like, I do get, you know, accused of of elitism, but I'm like, you know, like it is true that some people are going to the bottom, I usually not intelligence courage, in my opinion, right? You have to be willing to stick with the problem. Just like, you know, like I saw someone say genius is caring about something more than anyone could reasonably expect to talk about it, right? Like, and like, the whole nature of geniuses that they're going to be specialized and, like, probably thrown randomly on the globe. But if you can help them communicate off, then you don't need to change the whole world, you change. The people who want to think better, do you help them find each other? You help them like, help each other and hopeful they, they figure out how to live a life that is itself. Attractive enough, right? The best, the best way to, you know, they would say in Christianity, right? Like the best evangelism is just being a really fucking good person off. Swear. But like they would say like that's actually how you really convert people is. You're just like, like you don't go give some now like some arguments, right. You don't like it's actually if you're just really kind and compassionate your life for them and you're like and you raised like the theory I have is that or the theory I like is that Jesus is a distributed system after the crucifixion, right? And off basically, you know, there's in the Bible, they say, like when two or more you were gathered, I'm there, right? That the goal is to download the Christ operating system, right? And they're like, actually there's this idea of life, you know, energy flows where attention goes like the neurons that fire together wire together, like my, my model of agency in the brain, it great essay, by by Kevin similar, neurons. Gone wild. I like the idea that like there's many different agents in the brain. That's what addiction is. It's a demon. It's a pattern that like, you know, gets fed by repetitive sort of like dead. Firing patterns of your neurons. Like, you can host the spirit of, of Jesus just like, you can host a spirit of, like honest, truth seeking. I think they're, I think they're kind of like it actually split. Like that, seems like enough now that I've gone weirdly mystical on it, but that's how you change things is if you try and if you try and and like, so I thought I would post it in, you know, the the text of stuff to cover like what kind of stuff I'm thinking about and it's it, is this like a I was I was talking about like a particular ADHD struggle on Twitter around, like, you know, cuz be able to coordinate with people you want to make commitments. And, you know, do things like show up on time, right? Always for my entire life in a major challenge for me, right. I have not had a consistent sleep schedule since high school, right? So and and I I heard from a guy in Kuwait and he was talking about how the biggest change that, you know, had helped him with like, you know, building a trust in himself. As someone with ADHD was like, was looking at self-love and self-hatred and self-judgment, right? And like discovering that he had like major anger issues that actually stemmed from the anger that he had towards himself because he like, you know, like couldn't really work with him like, you know, maybe she brings it kind of hard to work with including for the people who have them. Like it's really it can be really frustrating to hire a standard you set for yourself. When you fail to meet it, it definitely has a negative impact on the people around you and yeah, and lead to a whole crazy guilt spiral. And we had a amazing. I was just, you know, I deemed with him and I was like, hey can you talk like right now and turns out? He had been a former Muslim extremist and had like become more moderate when you went back to Kuwait. And, you know, we were just talking about this whole idea of, you know, judge not that ye be not judged applies to yourself as well, right? And that's like Jesus is telling you to like, stop, fucking hating yourself so much and that will allow you to love your like love thy neighbor. As thyself job requires that you love myself, right? In order to fulfill the Commandment like you actually do need to figure out how to like like except which is, especially hard, I think, you know, wage Well, I think it's always been hard. It's hard for folks to find self-love and yeah, really frigging hard. I mean you were I was enjoying your your, I'm sure you've got thoughts on this.


Speaker 1 (32:39)
I hope you guys are enjoying the conversation. So far on this podcast, I always preach about practicing gratitude and today, I'm thankful for our sponsor cash app and making the quest possible. Cash app is the best way to spend save and invest in stocks as well as by cryptocurrencies in a way that's easy to understand and accessible for everyone from payments to banking to investing. You can do it all on one platform available for download on the App Store and Google play. So you better go get that ten bucks your friend owes you from two years ago. Now, let's get back to the episode. I mean that was a big struggle for me, you know. Like I feel like we don't often times they don't create a societal structures to help ourselves realize that are come to self self love you know. Like a lot of maybe this is goes off. We were talking about earlier where, you know there was we've gone away from like institutions, like the church which may bhi reinforces the messages like that maybe not. You know, it probably depends on like, you know, particular particular brand. And I mean


Speaker 2 (34:40)
and story of church we hear now is that it only did like like the opposite imagine a positive Church despite the fact that the right everyone imagines. Now in New Jersey. Now the church like only was there to install like self hatred and self-loathing without recognizing the like it was around for thousands of years in a very diverse world like It wasn't, it probably was not the boogeyman that you heard from


Speaker 1 (36:05)
every single. There's just black and white. There's, there's there's shades of great everything, right? It's not just just a black and white story, but like, for life, like, you know, there was no institution of like that really helped me have self-love and self-acceptance. And so, you know, the replacement for that for me was like, oh if I may know it's the same thing you were talking about earlier was like, the capitalist attention also called grabbing. Yeah, hustle call was the thing. That was like, oh, if I just like fulfil these things. You had a camera sensor head. Exactly. Like, if I become successful by getting attention, then I will have like self piece, right? Like, I'll find some, like, I'll be okay with myself. And obviously, that didn't work out, like, I became Successful, by money, you know, the external metrics, but then it didn't really change anything for me, right? Like it. Internally, like nothing on the outside of your agents, ignore me internally, so finding that to be wanting. And then what, you know, wage We got researching and trying to understand what could come next for me and and finding a lot more in, what's effectively, you know, meditation and, and gratitude, just practices and daily practised that really helped me was something that was really like changing. And I would I'm very interested in finding ways to institutionalize that for other


Speaker 2 (38:20)
people. Yeah, yeah. And like, I guess, the first thought was something like that. Yeah, physician heal thyself. And like, let's take the log out of your own eye before just like fixing a free website. Like, I've seen you got, it's like, who the fuck's can sympathize with you Justin, like your ability, you know, like you've got like, like there is this thing that I've been worried about as you, you know, start to look more successful to other people of like Faith or we like, actually there is something where there's some people get like they're attached in like they they the idea that you could be worthy of sympathy for anything right off. Yeah, like oh you must have it so much easier than like, right? Like like like who the fuck is going to empathize with you? Like you can't, it's it would be completely socially untenable for you to like really dead actually want acceptance from other people or something like that, right? You're supposed to be, you know, you're famous and you're successful. I think like, what kind of stuff and loser are you to actually want anything from anybody else, you know? Yeah. Well,


Speaker 1 (40:26)
the interesting thing about that is that I do get that, you know, I get that on YouTube or whatever people are, like, I'd rather be crying in a Ferrari than my poor, you know? Like, and there's, there's some of that but then they're actually is, you know, I was surprised. And heartened by the fact that there are quite a few people out there who are like, wow, you're you know, like it's true like rich people successful. People are just human beings to have their own ups and downs and like I believe you because I think, you know, they see like I'm saying in a somewhat authentic way and they like see that and they're like, oh, I believe this game. And so, it's like is reassuring to me in some way because I know that like, no matter where I'm at what I achieve, I'll still be a human being at the other end of it. And I'll still have like, up still still have Downs. I'll still have like a need for self-acceptance for myself and others and I think that is a powerful message to people which is, you know, which reaches some set of the audience, you know, ya


Speaker 2 (42:22)
know exactly nice. It's dead nicer to have money than to not have money having not had money, you know. Like it's like, you know, but like it really also does cause a lot of other problems. Right? And and there is an interesting thing of, you know, money start-up through service. You're beautiful place where like I've been thinking I've been thinking about this sort of pointy edges that I refined over the years in order to like you know I keep living my life against the better advice of everyone who I knew and you know like just how to like update as you know, as things have changed or something. Like that. It's like you develop some, some sharp edges and you're like, I don't know if that actually makes as much sense anymore. How do I like shift that now? Is that, is that long, you know, survival strategy, like still appropriate in this new environment. It's hard to tell instantly hard for your subconscious to tell and like, actually update and have that like, propagate through into your life. Felt, you know, just how you are in the world. But yeah, I don't know. My like I I one thing I will just say on that is like, Meditation is definitely awesome. I want to figure out how to build community that like actually is Like accountable, right? And like, actually does say like, hey, like this isn't going to be for everyone, but like, we believe some things together and this is what we believe. And, like, do we want to live? Well, like like we want to, like, try and like, there's a good life. There's such a thing, as a good life, and it might not be open slot machines for the restroom, you know what I'm saying? Like, there's no, there is such a thing as an objective standard for, like, how we want to be the one another and you can fall short of that, right? Like you just not all just like subjective, there's values and virtues and there is like their Code of Ethics in their ways. And also we fucking love you where you're at. And if you're actually trying we're going to try and figure out how to have you work with in the system, right? Like that's


Speaker 1 (46:26)
the well, I've been thinking about that a lot, you know, and and for the past couple of years and I think that might be part of all of the things I'm doing are kind of like fit into a master plan around that, you know, in a way. And I always conceived of it as you know what helped me through my, you know, this process is like birth. Up with a set of practices and that that helped me live a better life, right? Like those things, you know, meditation, gratitude Fitness, like I've talked about them a lot and then it was creating support structures around me or Community around me that helped me maintain those things. Right. Like so I stopped drinking alcohol. And I want to separate structures was like I had some other friends who got a drinking alcohol too. And I had said, it's part of my identity. And I'm like, I've been drinking game on Twitter and then there was a whole momentum around not drinking for me, right? And then same is true meditation. I had a meditation group and access it was like that. A similar thing. Yeah. So I was thinking like, how do you create? Like if how do I apply like what I've learned about the consumer internet to create infrastructure around that and I could see Vivid as like three parts. Like one was like the marketing part of like lead generation or, or like getting people getting the information out there. And so that's actually why I started the podcast was like, can I create this like information, like information about this in these wage? Is out there that anyone can access and then that might get interesting. People are people are paying attention to you? Exactly that in the second part. The second phase of like the second phase is the page like this idea of like a nap. Basically or some, some way to get people started on working on like they're healthy habits. And so actually created the app. It's called kin habit tracker. And it's like a, yeah, in a way to build, download habits in your life subscription. Thank you, appreciate that. And, and then, like, the idea was like, can you create social accountability around adopting some of these habits? And I think that that's in a very long entry form for what it could be. But and then the last thing I was thinking about, was like, what's the physical version? So like once you go all the way down the funnel, you're like, okay, I want to, I'm really interested in like, creating these instructions for myself off of a structure, can you create like, you know, there's a reason why in every religion there's church, or Tsonga, or like, you know, Community, right? Like physical Community where people like gather around specific principles and the like them. My last ideas like how do you implement like the physical Community. All right, here's to what end though, right? I live like, yeah, that's a good question. And for me it's like, yeah, but like, all right. So looks like


Speaker 2 (50:54)
like wage and and and how much simpler would what would change if you expected to lose all of your money doing this? And you expect like that was the plan was that you would not make an IPO out of can, but like you would lose everything in doing it. How would you plan


Speaker 1 (52:10)
change? That's a good question. I like that that I'll answer the first part first, which is like to what end. It's you know, I think it's the same thing that causes anybody to creating a sort of organizational structure that they think is better for people. It's like, you see it as good for yourself. And then you've like, other people you think that it's Evangelical Alliance? Like, yeah, exactly. It's like, I can I help other people through the things methodologies, that helped me. And so I want to create the structure that like, you know, propagates itself. You know, like a like a meme. Right? And then, you know that. Yeah. I


Speaker 2 (52:42)
mean, like the thing that I'm


Speaker 1 (52:43)
Yeah, I know a lot of you know to what would it would change if I what would change if I spent all my money for intended to lose all my money, doing it, you know, it's maybe maybe this the amount I was investing in it. I feel like I invested a lot of time and not that money. Maybe I would just invest more money and like, try to do more


Speaker 2 (52:59)
quickly. I mean, if you, if you, if you actually expected that you would be a good, it would still be a good life decision. If you lost everything, someone asked me like how to build like an Enterprise sales cult and I like lost it on him cuz I'm like, what are you like, what are you talking about? Like is why, why they, how would you want to do that? Like why would why are you like you have one fucking life to live?


Speaker 1 (54:27)
It's cuz his religion is money, right? Like that's the reason you would get it.


Speaker 2 (54:31)
Yeah, I mean in like like there's you know, Every Idle like that's the thing that's cool about like every idle falls short, right right now. Like there's a log. People people have, you know, they make a God out of their romantic partner, they worship their partner or they worship the idea of true love and finding the right person and, like, for them, like, you know, finding your soulmate is like, oh, it's, you know, it's the same story. You're, you're trying to construct a narrative, but just as intense as people finding Jesus, right, when they have conversion stories, right? And down because this person is not a God, right? There's no person who's not going to let you down. There's no thing that's not going to like, like let you down. There's no idea that's not going to let you down, right? But like everything in life will fucking let you down and still life worth living like still life, like you will suffer, no matter what the situation and still. It's like actually things like there is good out here, right? And like there is beauty out there and it's like still there even with like no matter how bad, the situation you're in, you can always. Yep. Worse, no matter how good the situation and you can always make it better like that to me is heaven and hell, right? Like they're just recursive feedback loops, there is a cool thing about, you know, Capital which is like if you find a thing which is really good and dead, you capture some of the value create you can invest it to potentially find more better things, right? Similarly, if you're fucking obsessed with hoarding it and that is the ends, right? Then, like, if you're going to end up gradually, making your product shittier and shittier and finding all sorts of ways to good heart like to you know, to make the would they say they say a metric which becomes a Target fails to be like a good metric, right? As soon as they your teaching to the test, you stop teaching the fucking kids out of thing. So, you know, you know, if you're just trying to figure out only how to make money, then you're screwed anyway. It's just, I'm like I agree with you to some extent of like, well, I'm also like why are the people who are used using your apps like actually wanting good habits as it just seemed like be more fucking Elite like to make sure they're like the more fucking like Slim, So their Instagram profiles better, so they get more light. So they can feel that gnawing self-loathing inside them cuz they, you know, weren't pretty in middle school. Like, you know, I'm like, what's the point of all these healthy habits? If you like don't have, like, like a, any sort of weight of repressed by situating together or anything bigger than a self anything? Yeah. Yeah. What's the purpose, right? It's like if it's just and so anyways, that's my I'm like about like dude. Like fucking religion that makes demands on you is going to make you come back, right? Like it's not any of this like Prosperity Gospel shit, right? Like the, the religion that's going to fucking that. We all want these to be asked to do offer, like, like for fucksake, like, the main thing we were asked for with this. Pandemic was to play video games in order more take-out, right? It's like most people, at least most of lease were asked to make Zach make any sacrifice wage. The only people making any sacrifices that would be, you know, the essential workers, which really means the fucking dispensable people that we don't mind sending out into the pandemic because they're fucking low-wage, right? It's like God, you know, yeah, but like there's been no sacrifices people. I think are like, wants to make sacrifices some people, right? And it is Meaningful to make that feels fucking good to like, work your ass off and not be like, just to be recognized for contributing something to be recognized for growing, for actually being able to like be more tomorrow when you work today because you were pouring yourself into a problem that was real and getting better at it. Like, that's the thing that I I feel like there's a real yearning for, and, yeah,


Speaker 1 (1:02:34)
that's that's super inspiring.


Speaker 2 (1:02:36)
You're onto something. I think you're onto something, but I'm like, I don't think it's a fucking app to start or like, maybe it isn't. Obviously, I'm building a I'm trying Romans, trying to figure out like dead. The Bible look like if we were all writing it together but actually we were trying to do truth-seeking and it wasn't all just like everyone make up their own thing. It's like no we're trying to like make sense of complex problems and like like some things are worth. It depends on the context, right? It's like actually it's not a single textual object of like this is always true in all situations. It's like a high dimensional map of like useful things to help you navigate the world and like acquire knowledge and skill to like try and solve real problems. But I feel like there's something besides just like trying to make a fucking ad for this stuff. There's something else mm. There's like who's who's actually going to tell you that you're like being faked you know like you have people that are like going to tell you if like you're actually just like not dude you're you're doing the thing that's not make you popular like you're not doing the thing that is like hard and true or whatever. Right? I maybe I'm doing. I'm like


Speaker 1 (1:04:41)
blah I think I think you're right. I think you're right there. There's somebody real good job. Right, exactly. You need to be real Community organized around principles that people are willing to sacrifice for and make that trade-off for, right? And so are you crazy that and like, how do you, how do you you,


Speaker 2 (1:06:00)
you can trust, you need to trust to say, you're not perfect, right? Like how can you tell something like how can you have enough trust to say something like, hey, this Thursday, we're doing is, like not having the outcome that you're hoping for or like this thing that you're doing is hurting people, right? Maybe it's hurting yourself, maybe certain others and also I'm I'm not I'm not going to abandon you like I still love you like your fucking up like you're a mess dude. You're drunk. Like but I love you and like you're not going to like I'm going to shut your fucking ass if I see you drinking or something like you know what I'm saying? Like there's it takes a lot of trust to tell somebody honestly, you don't think they're doing the right thing or that they're like, work is not up to standard like to even claim that Such a thing as a standard is like, so not cool. So yeah. And to be able to hold that in the same time as like, and that's the thing that I thought like that's one of the reasons I love Christianity so much right is that it is, it is both. Like, it doesn't like, I don't know. In a particular form of it, it's like hey, like I said, you're probably actually a terrible person. Like, let's be real cuz you're probably you probably lie to your friends all the time. You probably are super selfish and you get angry at everyone and they you like ten things on other people. And like you, you cheat and steal like like in subtle ways all the time, right? You probably just like sin is missing. The market doesn't actually even constant evil. It's just like a missing the mark of what it is. You know, it is Lonnie talks about like the talking straight path, right? Like it's it's it's a Razor's Edge. I think that might even be the razor's Edge might be might be a Buddhist right? But like there's dead. It's hard to live really well. Like, in a way that actually, you know, can make you not a drain on everyone around you or something, right? Like, it's hard, like, it's just stuck and heart. I don't even know how to like. I don't even know what bridge says. It's hard to see God and see goodness, but like but also it's okay, like you're going to fuck up and you're like going to be like and then you just like it right back on it. It's like you don't you don't tell a story about being bad. You don't tell a story about being a terrible person. You just get right back up, a new. And like, anyways, that's my like, we don't have that in our society and like, especially in cancer culture for Christ's life, but you did something bad ten years ago and like now, like, no one should ever associate with you anymore, right? Like, you know, like oh you're you hypocrite like you don't, you're proclaiming a standard wage, don't live up to it all the time. Oh my God, like you like, actually, the only thing that safe to do is to like not have any fucking standards. So I don't know. That's my like, I think, I think to have birth That we can both hold each other accountable and, like, be honest. And also be like, like, I, I don't know how to, you know, that's I think the thing that I'm hoping for is I'm like I want to figure out like, how do I actually do the thing that Jesus is saying, which is like to not judge myself. How do I do that? Jesus is saying is like to like love myself and then others like that, right? Like an Choi still not like just fucking be making excuses to go. Do what is easy and like you know like serves me off the short-term and hurts everybody else around, you know like avoid the hard emotional conversations to require you to be vulnerable with somebody like and work through some shit right? Like just like oh just like stupid, go watch something on Netflix real jerk off and said right like it's like you know, I don't know, I guess my, but I'm like, that's yeah, like I feel like that's if we figured out how to do that, that's better than a nap. So for sure,


Speaker 1 (1:12:49)
like, a week that's this has been an amazing conversation on a long time. That's a


Speaker 2 (1:12:53)
wrap now. It's been an hour 40 minutes. Yeah,


Speaker 1 (1:12:58)
yeah man.


Speaker 2 (1:14:00)
Thanks, it was fun. That was super nice truck


Speaker 1 (1:14:02)
coming on. All right guys, that was my conversation with Connor. I hope this far-reaching conversation sparked. Some ideas in you. I certainly hasn't me and I hope you've all had an amazing time if you like this conversation, bang that five star rating and I'm going to see you guys next week. We got a bunch of amazing guests coming up. I'm super excited about it. Having a lot of fun with the podcast. I hope you're having fun listening to it. So I have a good time and I'll see you next time. Goodbye.
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